Curse

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Unless you've been living in a cave these last few months, the use of PvE skills and consumables has been a hot topic. This thread is'nt to go into the pros and cons of these but to suggest a way to change their effects such as to continue to make them fun to use, but also encourage more versitile skill usage and play styles.

Now,what i'm suggesting is that we leave pve skills and consumables exactly as they are. Many people enhoy them and for loads of people they are a great fun way just to mess about in game. However it is clear that their use has affected high end PvE in a negative way in terms of player skill, builds and profession usage. So how to balance it up.

In many video games(esp consoles) cheats are provided by the developers, but progress is often hindered or the same games are marked with CHEAT etc.

My suggestion is that if a player uses A PvE skill. or a party wide consumable then that player forfiets the ability to place the statue in the HoM and recieves reduced drops from the end reward chest. Ofc the rest of the team wont be affected to stop griefing.

Therefore people can ursan away to their hearts content kill everything, still farm the areas, but to earn the acheivement or maximise drops they need to run a non pve/cons build. Like hardmode rewards people for upping the difficulty, this would do the same.

Tosha · Apr 14, 2008, 08:39 AM // 08:39

That sounds really good imo. It will promote creativity at least until the next gimmick is created

Shriketalon · Apr 14, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

You do realize you are proposing that the following scenario should occur.

Person A, B, and C are playing a dungeon.

Person C uses Signet of Capture somewhere within the dungeon to get an elite.

Person A and B get drops from the chest, person C does not.

After all, person C used a PvE skill.

Why should Triple Shot prevent me from getting drops? Is Ether Nightmare breaking the game? Why should using "Don't Trip" against the Great Destroyer negate the event for handbooks?

This is, sorry to say, not a good idea.

It's A Me · Apr 14, 2008, 08:41 AM // 08:41

I dont like the idea of the person that uses the cons or a pve skill decreases the drops of the end chest, seems a little too harsh for something that isnt a cheat in the first place.

Itll havr to affect something but im not sure what. Maybe increase the rewards for the people who actually run proper team builds? Like old school style.

pfaile · Apr 14, 2008, 08:46 AM // 08:46

So I shouldn't be able to use TNTF on my paragon because you hate Urasn blessing?

Bront · Apr 14, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

What does that accomplish other than allowing players who don't use PvE skills to say "Look how 1337 I am"?

Let's look at them individualy.

The Factions PvE skills from Luxon/Kurzik, they are immensely powerful in many cases, but require a fairly excessive grind to get them up to a high level. The worst offender, "Save Yourselves" is more of a problem due to how the Paragon works than it is by itself (Warriors don't get the benefit when they use it themselves, making it slightly less effective as they're often the ones needing it most), though that doesn't mean it's still not ridiculously effective.

The Faction Endgame PvE skills are not an issue, as they are built into the endgame areas only.

The Sunspear PvE skills aren't wholely nasty, and while they are a little more powerful than some normal skills, they aren't so powerful as to make themselves vital to any and every build.

I admittedly haven't used the Lightbringer skills, but I believe their effectiveness is limited to NF, making them much less of an issue.

The EotN skills are a different animal all together. Some are quite powerful. A majority of them are in a similar space to the Sunspear skills, where they are effective, but not needed in some builds. Others are significantly more powerful than normal skills, to the point of finding their way on most PvE builds that don't look to exclude them.

The big problem children are the transformations, that override your entire skill bar, and there's a thread discussing them elsewhere. Basicly, most players think changing those to something similar to the Dervish's Avatars, where they augment you, but you continue to use your other selected skills is a good compromise, and then making the transformation skills valuable, but not so powerful where they might be a required part of builds.

I don't have a lot of experience with Consumables, but given they require Skill points, and some of their effects are not unlike consumables given out during festivals, I don't see them as a big problem.

Ultimately, here's the issues. Are the people that using them and having fun having wrongbad fun and need to be stopped? Are people who don't use these skills losing out on something or directly harmed by their use? Do the PvE skills fit into the campaign they're in and add to the value and lore of the game? Do any skills cause serious functionality problems or overpower other options extensively?

Well, my answers are 1) No, 2) No, 3) the EotN ones are the only truely problematic ones, and some of them do feel squeezed in to add something cool, and 4) Unforuntately, yes. Ursan, Pain Inverter, "Save Yourselves" are probably the three worst offenders, but there are others that are a bit over the top in power.

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Just to clarify, only the person who uses PvE skills would be affected.

It's not just ursan. SY and TNTF are just as broken, only that people don't know what they can do. Seed of life, in spite of the nerf is also too good not to be on most monks bars. Consumables just break the game full stop.

This way, people could choose what they wanted to do. Play for rewards or play for fun. Same as hard mode, call it harder mode

jiggles · Apr 14, 2008, 08:56 AM // 08:56

and for places that do not have an end chest, jack shi* happens? kewl.

mHtt · Apr 14, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

The original point of this thread is utter non sense, the implied premises being:

-All players must conform to my personal playing prerogatives.

My reply to this is: You don't have to use cons or PVE skills, or for that matter party with people who do. Modern Governments were setup to prevent people like you from imposing their will on the masses.

If you don't like how the use of an as of yet un nerfed skill, you don't have to use it. Stop trying to shape Guild Wars into the game you want it to be.

If you have a problem with how the new skills might affect the game economy don't forget many, and I mean MANY FoW/UW runs are ruined by total newbs who don't know how to do quests/hold aggro/leech etc etc. I don't buy the argument that Ursan is a newb only skill. Calling it such is an easy dismissal and a cop out of a real argument.

Personally I think you might want to show more respect for the game developers who are obviously doing quite a good job to attract and maintain such a large community, of which you are a voluntary a contributor.

Peace out.

pfaile · Apr 14, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

This way, people could choose what they wanted to do. Play for rewards or play for fun. Same as hard mode, call it harder mode

As long as you are a monk, ele, or a warrior.

upier · Apr 14, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

The problem here is that this proposes rewarding people who CHOOSE to gimp themselves because they consider the road to the reward to be more important then the reward itself. I just don't see why the extra reward is needed for such individuals because they had clearly voted against it.
So no - I don't see why people should be rewarded for not using the best options available.
It's just forcing a concept on the userbase THAT can already be achieved now.
If you don't like - don't use it.

(Ohh and in case if anyone who is working on GW2 is reading this - clearly this ONLY aplies to GW1 because it's broken beyond words!)

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

The original point of this thread is utter non sense, the implied premises being:

-All players must conform to my personal playing prerogatives.

My reply to this is: You don't have to use cons or PVE skills, or for that matter party with people who do. Modern Governments were setup to prevent people like you from imposing their will on the masses.

If you don't like how the use of an as of yet un nerfed skill, you don't have to use it. Stop trying to shape Guild Wars into the game you want it to be.

If you have a problem with how the new skills might affect the game economy don't forget many, and I mean MANY FoW/UW runs are ruined by total newbs who don't know how to do quests/hold aggro/leech etc etc. I don't buy the argument that Ursan is a newb only skill. Calling it such is an easy dismissal and a cop out of a real argument.

Personally I think you might want to show more respect for the game developers who are obviously doing quite a good job to attract and maintain such a large community, of which you are a voluntary a contributor.

Peace out.

No it's not that at all. I never even mentioned the economy, by doing this people can still farm areas with Pve skills as much as they like. Only the end game chest and ability to put a shiny statue in the HoM. The effect on the economy would be minimal.

I'm sorry if you can't see the harm to the game in having skills that are so powerful they obliterate all other builds and professions in the game. Read the many millions of threads on it in the riverside forum.

Maybe the simplest thing would be to not allow cons and pve skills in hard mode, which is how hard mode was designed to be in the first place.

DivineEnvoy · Apr 14, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Only the end game chest and ability to put a shiny statue in the HoM.

Is this the reason why you made this suggestion?

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

No. I want to give people who like whoosh bang kickass the ability to do so and also open up the game again to other builds than those crammed full of over powered skills and sweeties.

Nerfing the skills would destroy the whoosh bang aspect so many enjoy so would be a bad option. This one gives them the option and incentive to do something different as well. Currently there is no in game incentive to do so.

DivineEnvoy · Apr 14, 2008, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

No. I want to give people who like whoosh bang kickass the ability to do so and also open up the game again to other builds than those crammed full of over powered skills and sweeties.

Nerfing the skills would destroy the whoosh bang aspect so many enjoy and yet give them an incentive to move away from it all the time.

Before you open the game to other builds, you also need to terminate the cookie-cutter builds; before the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they dominated every PvE areas into the game. Even with the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they still managed to dominate some areas into the game such as Slaver's Exile.

jayson · Apr 14, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Before you open the game to other builds, you also need to terminate the cookie-cutter builds; before the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they dominated every PvE areas into the game. Even with the existence of PvE-only skills and consumables, they still managed to dominate some areas into the game such as Slaver's Exile.

Couldn't agree more. Long before pve skills and consumables there was class restriction and specific builds only allowed in "high end" pve (that still sounds funny to me) Who benefits from taking away the monument from a player who got it by using a pve skill? The only thing I can see is that the people who got it without pve skills can boast about it. And really, who cares about what you did in the game other then youself? E-peen is a truly sad thing and I hear this kind of thing all the time. People who are somehow "harmed" by anothers success. You can't add multi reward systems to GW and not have a HUGE backlash. There's absolutley no reason to change the reward sysyem. The people who use pve skills or consumables aren't cheating so there's no need to punish them as if they're doing something wrong.

Be the good little player and don't use pve skills like Ursan and we'll reward you. Be a bad little player by using Ursan and we'll F*****G PUNISH YOU! Yeah I can see that going over really well.

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 09:55 AM // 09:55

We have a title that awards people who do things in game called hard mode. How is this any different?

isildorbiafra · Apr 14, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Not signed.

Dont like pve skills? Dont use them. What makes your cookie cutter build better or more deserving than my usan grind build. At least i put in my hours to max the title. You got your coookie cutter build within 5 minutes from guru. PVE skills is anet's way of keeping players intresteded in the game.

I'm KOBD 4 thanks to ub and pi. I do everrything with h/h! Without pve skills i would have lost intrest and quit playing a long time ago.

Go anet! Keep it appealing to a broad base of players.

RiKio · Apr 14, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Remove Pve Skills and consumables, add two skillsets ( For PvE and PvP) and the problem will stop.

bhavv · Apr 14, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiKio

Remove Pve Skills and consumables, add two skillsets ( For PvE and PvP) and the problem will stop.

Quoted for the truth.

Hopefully this is how they will do it in GW2.

GW1 is just broken beyond broken with all the PVE only crap that turns everything in the game into easy mode for dummies.

I find fun in GW from running my own builds and the creativity that the diverse skill selection allows. Ursan removes this entirely from the game.

However, I cant actually play FoW or UW anymore because I cant ever find a non ursan group. This is how it affects me negatively.

Class selection was a previous problem yes, but that is due to the inability of the person forming the group, not the class. There have been many mesmer UW clearing groups, and you can even try to create your own custom group whenever you like. But you cant while every tom dick and harry is playing Ursan.